Jordan Harbinger

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Introduction to Smarter Podcasting

Niall: Welcome to Smarter Podcasting.

I’m Niall Mackay, the podcast guy, and I am your host today. And this show is here to help you make the best podcast possible. Now in today’s episode, my guest is going to show you how to extensively prepare for your podcast interviews. We’ve had some of the biggest names in podcasting on the show already.

We’ve had Adam Shively, Nissenblatt and Sam Sethi, just to name a few. But in this episode, we have, without a doubt, the biggest name for sure. And there is a chance that you have listened to his show already. He was a Wall Street lawyer turned podcaster whose show was voted one of the top shows by Apple in 2018 and Forbes called him

a podcasting millions of downloads per month. His YouTube channel has over 230, 000 subscribers and his top video has been viewed over [00:01:00] 3 million times.

He has interviewed some of the biggest names in podcasting from Dennis Rodman to Tony Hawk, Moby and Cesar Millan, just to name a few, just to name a few.

Introducing Jordan Harbinger

Niall: My guest today I’m excited to introduce is Jordan Harbinger. Thank you for joining me,

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you. It’s funny when you say the name and then you say the Show.

title, it doesn’t sound as creative as it maybe wanted it to be. But then again, who names a show after themself and expects that to sound creative? I don’t know. Only this guy. Let’s just say my expertise shines in some areas and not so much in others.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: Well tell me, how did you go from being a Wall

Jordan’s Journey from Law to Podcasting

Jordan Harbinger:

Yeah, I mean, podcasting grew as kind of a funny thing because I didn’t brand myself that way, but If you’ve been in the game for 18 years, I guess that’s how it goes. So I actually started podcasting early. I was teaching a class in law school, not as a professor, just sort of like a elective, you know, networking for young lawyers or [00:02:00] something like that.

And I started teaching it at a bar because the room we needed was often locked. It didn’t have air conditioning. I was like, look, the same five people are showing up. Hold it at a bar and get a beer or not. And I, I started to record these classes. And so, all right, let me back up. I started to run these classes and it was all women.

Cause guys were like, I don’t need that. I’m so smart. I don’t need to learn how to network. I don’t need relationships. And we started breaking down nonverbal communication one day. And I was, sort of dissecting people at the bars. Like, see, these two are not on a date. These two are on a date, but like, she’s not into him and he’s really into her.

See this, that, and the other thing. And I started reading the body language. I was like, well, you know, we’re sort of guessing at this, but like, we’re, with some certainty, we can sort of say with some confidence what’s going on. And the women were like, whoa, I feel like I can do that, but I’ve never been able to articulate it before.

So we then totally got derailed into just doing that basically every day. Cause that’s what they were interested in. And I had some networking systems and things like that they took notes on, but mostly they were interested in these breakdowns of [00:03:00] like people’s nonverbal communication. Then word started to spread and it was like, I, one day I had five women at the class.

The next day I had like 11 women in the class. Then it was like 16 and we started running out of space and it was like, Oh gosh, what are we going to do? We got to limit it. And then. Guys started to go, how come you, every Thursday you’re out with like 20 women? What is, what, what’s, what’s up? And I was like, Oh, I’m teaching this class.

Like they’re not interested in me. They’re just interested in the things that I’m saying. So then guys started showing up and they were like, wait, wait, wait, I need to, you just start from the beginning. And so I started recording the things I was saying, because I’m like, dude, This class has been going for three weeks, you show up on week four, and you’re like, start from the beginning?

Like, what class works like that? None. You listen to this CD of me talking, because I had like a Sony mini disc player, and I put a lavalier or something up to it, and I was like, okay, I’ll record this, you go and sort of listen to this CD that I burned for you. And then what happened was guys were like, Hey, I need another CD.

And I was like, you guys are knuckleheads. You’re losing it. And so I started charging them like five bucks. [00:04:00] Then I started charging like 20 bucks. Cause nobody was giving me the CDs back. And I was like, Hey, what gives they’re like, Oh, well, I gave one to my roommate. I kept one for myself and I need five more.

Cause I want to give one to my brother, one to my cousin, one to my, and I was like, Whoa, this is not a product for sale. This is like, Like they could just come join the class and they’re like, no, no, no, I’m giving it to my friend in New Jersey and I’m sending it to my cousin who lives in Bethesda. So I thought, okay, I need to, I’m not going to get rich selling 20 CDs.

Like that’s not the model that I have. I’m going to be a Wall Street attorney here at some point, or just an attorney, qualified attorney at some point. So I started to look around for ways to distribute. audio files online, which sounds very obvious and rudimentary now. Like you could do that pretty much anywhere, but there was no YouTube.

There was no SoundCloud. So we found podcasting.

The Early Days of Podcasting

Jordan Harbinger: A friend of mine’s like, you should check out this thing called podcasting. It’s like, you could put audio files basically up like a show. And I thought, Oh, it would be fun to do this like a show instead of just recordings in a bar. So me and a buddy, we started recording all this [00:05:00] stuff, like kind of as if it was a show where we were actually expecting people to listen. And that started to take off, man. As you know, Early in the day, 2006. There weren’t that many podcasts, you know, there was like a thousand and most of them weren’t active. It was like one or two episodes. And most of them weren’t, most of them were tech related because it was sort of a geeky niche. And we were like, Hey, this is a dating show about dating stuff and meeting women and being social and having a fun life.

And guys, all guys and women, frankly, from all over the world were like, this is new and unusual. Nobody’s talking about this stuff. So it really actually took off quite well. And that was my first jaunt into podcasting. And even when I became a lawyer, I was like, I’m just going to keep doing this podcast.

It’s like a fun hobby, whatever. I started a coaching company off the back of it. Coaching company was nice side hustle. Um, I told my company that I was doing it, that I wasn’t spending too much time on it, which is true at the time I brought in other people to work on the company. And then I ended up on Sirius XM satellite radio doing a Friday night [00:06:00] drive time show. which was similar to the podcast, but had live callers. And I just was really transparent with my law firm. I was like, Hey, every Friday from 7 to 9 p. m. I got to do this. And they’re like, okay, you probably won’t have work around that time. And it’s, it’s fun. You got, everybody’s got to have hobbies, outlets.

It’s one day a week, like no big deal. And they were mostly also kind of like enthralled by the fact that one of their junior associates was had a live call in show on satellite radio. Like that’s, you know, it’s legit. It’s not like, oh I’ve got to do this arts and crafts

thing every 7 at 7pm underwater basket weaving.

They were like, oh we can listen to that in the office while we do work and we can even call in and like mess with you because it was that kind of law firm. So I’d be taking calls and I’d hear these like Brooklyn accents and I’m like, I’m pretty sure that’s my boss, you know, like calling to screw with me probably in a conference room full of associates, having a laugh at my expense. But it was awesome, man. It was like really just a kind of a dream come true because I really like talk radios. You can tell I’m monopolizing the conversation right now. [00:07:00] But I was able to do a podcast, own the medium of the sort of means of distribution, right? Have it be decentralized, but then also have this radio show, and then also just make a really good living as an attorney.

Turning a Hobby into a Career

Jordan Harbinger: And then all of that, you know, eventually came to a crashing halt as the economy tanked. Uh, but I didn’t panic, because I thought, Oh, even though the law thing is winding down for me, and people are trying to find new jobs, I actually should just go all in on the thing that I like. And it’s funny how I came to that conclusion because a buddy of mine who was like Not that great at music, not that great at singing, not that great at the guitar, not that great at the whatever. He was like, yeah, I lost my job. I’m getting laid off. I’m now, if I’m going to have a go at this music thing, like it now’s the time, man, if I’m never going to be able to do this again, like now’s the time I’ve really got to go for it. And I thought if this delusional dude can think he’s going to be like the next Paul Simon or Paul McCartney, whatever, with his guitar harmonica thing and singing at open mic nights at bars, [00:08:00] I am ridiculous if I don’t take the momentum I have.

I’m on Sirius XM, Sirius XM Satellite Radio uh, every week during the evening drive. I’ve got a podcast of thousands or even tens of thousands of whatever people listen to. I’ve got a successful coaching company. Like, if I don’t take that momentum, I’m a, I’m an idiot. If this guy thinks he can do it, which like maybe he’s right, I’m actually dumb.

If I try to just not, if I throw this opportunity away, right? Cause they gave me severance and they’re like, all right, got to wait out this economic bubble thing. And I was like, man, I either get another job I don’t like. and hope that they’re cool with what I’m doing or just like go all in on the thing that I love.

And I’m so glad that I chose myself. You know, I was 27. It would have been real easy to look at those student loan payments and be like, yeah, but I was like, you know what? I’m going for it, man. Defer the loans for a minute, scrape the dust off. Uh, from getting laid off and throw, throw, you know, I lived like a college student.

So I was like, all right, I can just live like a college student [00:09:00] for longer. And I have plenty of savings because Wall Street money is Wall Street money, right? So, so that was the beginning of the show. And I, I basically, that was 2006, 2007. And I think the economic crash was like, what, 2008 or something like that.

So that was the, that was when I was like, all right, I’m going all in. And it’s, it’s been nonstop since then. I’m so glad that I’m not a lawyer right now. No offense to attorneys listening to this right now.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: That’s such an inspirational story. And I think it is what drives a lot of podcasters and gets people into podcasting when they see shows like yourself that has millions of downloads. And I think it’s what leads to not a lot of people, but some people getting into podcasting because they think.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: they’re going to have the same story as you and they’re going to monetize and make lots of money and it’s going to be the full time job and they’re going to interview Cesar Milan and unfortunately

that you really are in the

top 1%, top 0.

1 percent of podcasters, but for someone [00:10:00] listening or someone who is listening and gotten into podcasting because they

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, I, I mean, I would give them?

Advice for Aspiring Podcasters

Jordan Harbinger: the same advice that I sort of gave myself in the beginning, which is, this is probably a hobby and not a job. And if you can turn it into a job, you’re probably just going to ruin it. You know, so the podcast for me, For years and years, for 11 years, wasn’t even the main thing.

It was like lead generation for a coaching company that I ran. And the coaching company part was the job, but I was allowed to sort of make the show part, um, the fun part, right? That was like, I could do whatever I wanted. I just had to throw in commercials for my coaching stuff, throw in some teasers, throw in some whatevers. But I was able to sort of, And then, uh, a few years ago, I just decided I’m not going to do any of the coaching stuff anymore. I had like a split with some of my business partners. I’m just going to do the show stuff. And so it’s turned it into a job, but I love what I do and I’ve got so many systems in place that it doesn’t feel like work. But I would, I would say to any, but nobody’s [00:11:00] sitting around right now, reasonable people are not sitting around right now going, I love building LEGO sets with my kids. One day I’m going to monetize this and be rich. Like, No one does that. No one’s setting up trains around the Christmas tree and is like, you know what, I love collecting trains. I am going to be a champion train collector and I’m going to be rich doing this. If people go out for a run and they run a marathon every year, that’s a pretty serious runner. None of those people think, I am going to be rich doing this. This one day is going to be, make me millions of dollars. No one thinks that, but somehow. With podcasting and other similar endeavors, they’re like, Yeah, I like talking about, uh, baseball with three of my buddies. You know what? We’re gonna be super famous and super rich. And it’s like, what delusional shit is this? If I can say that on your show. Why would you think that? Because even if that is the case, which it’s like going to Hollywood and starting to act. And you’re like, I, my goal is to be rich and famous. Okay. A lot of people do that, but how many people succeed? This is more like going [00:12:00] to a community theater in again, Bethesda, Maryland, to just pick on my friend over there and going into community theater and going one day, I’m going to be in the sequel to Ocean’s 11 because George Clooney is going to discover me at this community theater, like not going to happen. So just enjoy being an actor in a community theater. There’s nothing wrong with it. It is a hobby. So when you are podcasting and you’re thinking. What’s next for me? Maybe nothing. And that’s totally fine. That’s totally, totally fine. You don’t have to make this a job. You don’t have to monetize it. It doesn’t have to be anything that makes you wealthy. It would be great if it broke even, like you paid for your microphone, your hosting fees recovered, maybe you got some free crap from some sponsors occasionally, t shirts, I don’t know, some free protein powder. Like, that’s a win, man! That is a win, but what most people do is they put so much pressure on themselves that they quit, right, and that’s, that’s why, that’s actually, that’s the actual reason why most people [00:13:00] aren’t successful in podcasting, because they quit early, and so it’s tough, right, because You have no guarantee of success, but you’re certainly, you’re definitely not going to succeed if you quit after a year, right?

So it’s tough. It’s, it’s tough. I think the worst thing you can do with any hobby is try to turn it into your job. And I think the worst thing you can do with something you love is try to turn it into something more than a hobby. If it happens to be that way, like you’re just crushing it. You’ve started a true crime show. You’re getting, uh, 500, 000 downloads a month, sponsors want to pay you, you live in a place where that kind of money is totally fine, you don’t need a job anymore, you can focus on the show, like, that’s a blessing, but for most of us, it’s just never gonna happen.

The Reality of Monetizing Podcasts

Jordan Harbinger: You know, I didn’t even plan to be a full time podcaster until Six years ago when I stopped the coaching company thing and I was like, gosh, is this even possible for me to make a living doing it?

And the answer is obviously yes. I mean, I got pretty lucky, but I’ve been in the game for almost two decades, you know, and I was one of the first to [00:14:00] market. Not only was I one of the first to market, I was one of the first to market that still exists now. So there were plenty of people that were early.

They could have taken that sort of first mover advantage, but they stopped, you know, I’m just still here. I just basically had to wait everyone out.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: I mean, I’m very similar

Niall’s Podcasting Experience

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: . When I started in 2019, my first podcast was just a hobby, a Vietnam podcast. And I remember at the time there was probably like this tiny little bit of me was like, wow, imagine if this blows up and I make money from it and it becomes a full time job and it hasn’t, I’ve been doing it for five years.

I think it’s the longest running English language podcast about Vietnam or in Vietnam. I’m so, so proud of it. And we. It’s done really well. And then you look at shows like yourself, it’s not, it’s not even 1 percent in terms of downloads compared to shows like yourself, but I’m so, so proud of it. And I made a decision quite a while ago that it’s really difficult to monetize something like [00:15:00] that, but I’ve learned so, so much and I have so many skills now and I’m continually learning like every single day and I’m going to help other people make podcasts because I love the medium so much and so, you know, it’s I still can’t believe that it is now.

My full-time job,

my full-time business is podcasting. I live and breathe podcasts because I love it so much. But one of the things that frustrates me the most is one, if somebody gets into podcasting because they wanna make money, and you know, I, I work with so many different clients, often comes up as a question like, so, so how can we monetize?

And I’m like, it’s not the question you should be asking, you can do it. Please don’t think of sponsorship. You need to be in the

top 1 percent to really make any money from sponsorship. I mostly advise my clients, like use it to drive your own business. You only need 50 to a hundred downloads to support your business.

I use this stupid example all the time. Like if you sell hammers, then, and you make a podcast

about hammers, [00:16:00] your audience is going to be into hammers as well, and that’s who you want to sell to

Challenges of Podcasting as a Side Hustle

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: . Um, But what frustrates me the most is when you see, you talked about having a side hustle, and one of the things that frustrates me the most is when you read these

blogs and they say, Oh,

start a podcast for a side hustle for monetization.

And I’m

like, do you terrible side hustle? Do you know how much it costs to set up, to make it? But mostly the time, one episode will take you eight to 10 hours from start to finish.

That is a day at work that you will not be paid for. And it’s normally on a side hustle of like, start a blog. Even doing a blog

if you want to monetize

it is eight to ten hours minimum a week So those really frustrate me when they

Jordan Harbinger: It’s one of,

podcasting is literally one of the worst ways to make money that I can think of. It really is. Like, it, it takes for, it, it takes forever to grow.

especially the audio part. YouTube may be a little different. You’re competing against anybody who can afford a USB microphone [00:17:00] and possibly a webcam, depending on if you’re audio, video, or both. And you have to book guests. If you’re, if it’s that kind of show, you have to create content. I mean, it’s really like one, one of the most time consuming, low ROI activities you could possibly do in terms of making money. That’s why I say to people view it as a hobby. Like if you buy a camera. You’re not thinking, Oh, you know, I’m going to be shooting weddings and making a bunch of money in no time.

You’re like, no, I just bought this camera to like, take pictures of my kids. What are you talking about? Monetize. That’s what you should look at podcasting is like, you essentially just bought a camera with a microphone on it. It’s to document things that you enjoy. It’s to talk about things that you enjoy.

It’s to hang out with your friend and record it and pretend you’re on the radio. That’s like how I started. Nothing wrong with this. Nothing wrong with this. Um, Or if you have another business and you’re trying to do lead gen, like you’re talking to personal injury lawyers talking about injuries and how those things are, you know, compensated and how the cases go.

But if anybody gets injured, call this number. That’s our law firm. Like you’re driving leads. It’s worthwhile. [00:18:00] But yeah, the idea that you’re suddenly going to get picked up by some massive network and then grown by them, it’s just, it’s complete fiction. And so it’s just more, it’s nicer to let that go and not worry about it. That’s what you should do, is just enjoy it

Preparing for Podcast Interviews

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: .

Well, we are gonna talk today about how to prep for your interviews and that is just another thing that takes time and I Don’t do it the best partly because I’m exactly like you, we just talked about. I’m a hobby podcaster for the most

part. My main business is making podcasts for other people. So I don’t have a huge amount of time to sit there and research guests, prepare questions.

I have a little bit for this one for sure, but in general, uh, I really like like the freshness of it.

From Humble Beginnings to Big Names

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: But so how do you go from, Starting your podcast, how did you go from there to interviewing people like Moby, which is [00:19:00] super cool. I loved Moby growing up. Uh, Cesar Millan, we have a dog, we watch Cesar Millan.

Uh, how do you, how did you go from interviewing people? I don’t know who you started off with, but you started off with your friend to interviewing some of the biggest names in

Jordan Harbinger: Sure, I mean, some of the interviews?

The Role of Luck and Networking

Jordan Harbinger: are just straight up, you know, luck over time, right? You network with people, publicists especially, they go, Oh, hey, look, this person has a new book coming out, or a new TV show coming out. You throw your name in the hat, you get rejected the first three times, or whatever, because they’re busy doing other stuff, and then one day they go, Oh, yeah, what’s up?

Podcasts are a thing. I listen to podcasts. I’ve heard of this guy. Yeah, Cesar Milan. Yeah, cool. We’re gonna go to his ranch and do it. Okay. He said yes, Saturday afternoon, whatever it is. And you just get lucky sometimes, you know, like I remember one of the reasons that I got Kobe Bryant on the show was a publicist had said something like Hey, I know I haven’t been able to book anybody on your show.

Sorry. There’s been a lot of like logistical stuff falling through and, and, and messes in that area. Kobe Bryant’s doing something. I got a little bit of a [00:20:00] slot open. Like, can you make it down to Orange County? I was like, absolutely. So I like flew down there the night before and, you know, did a bunch of prep for that and, and had the crew ready to go.

Preparation: The Key to Success

Jordan Harbinger: So a lot of it’s just like being prepared when the opportunity strikes and also Of course, none of this is going to happen if you have a show that doesn’t have an audience, right? They’re not going to book Kobe on a show that nobody listens to. That’s not a real thing that happens. Um, but a lot of times publicists just go, Hey, you know, CBS changed from today to tomorrow.

He’s got another media slot. You’ve been pretty cool about other stuff so far. Do you want to do that to take the slot? And there you go. And you have it and you’re good. Right? So. I would say it’s, it’s, there’s an old quote that’s like, fortune favors the prepared or luck favors the prepared. And that’s kind of what it is, right?

You just, you’re out there, you’re, you’re out there consistently. Your name is good. And people put people on your, people put other folks on your show. They put their clients on your show, whatever it is.

The Importance of Quality Content

Jordan Harbinger: But yeah, the prep is the other half, right? Like the, the creating something good from it is the other part of it. There’s lots of, [00:21:00] I mean, we’ve all seen celebrity interviews or interviews that we thought were going to be really good done by a journalist. And you can tell that it just like took like 10 minutes before the person showed up and said, Oh crap, what’s, what’s he in the news for today? Uh, what do you think of that game last night?

You know, just dumb stuff like that. And the reason is because they’re unprepared. So the quality, the content quality is low. And that’s what I don’t do. Like what the Jordan Harbinger show is known for. is really good prep because I don’t take shortcuts. There, there are no shortcuts, everyone’s heard that before, but there are systems and that’s, I think, the thing that people overlook. You know, if I book a guest, and I know we only have like, 15 minutes here. But, uh, when I book a guest, I read the whole book and whenever I tell people that I just see people go like, Oh man, I can’t do that. And I thought that way too, in the beginning, you know, I used to be like, Oh, I can’t read the whole book for every guest.

It’s too time consuming. And one day I read the whole book for a guest. Cause it was a big name for me at the time, Robert Green and a well known author. And I read his whole new book. It was massive. And the interview [00:22:00] went super well. And he was like, Wow, this is a really good interview. Like, you’re a good interviewer.

And I thought, well, that’s a super high praise, man. That’s amazing. This is probably like well over a decade now, you know, that was one of the coolest things I ever heard. And I told my wife, I go, you know, if only I could be this prepared for every guest. And she goes, well, you could be, you just have to read the book for every guest and I go, but that’s so much work.

And she goes, yeah, I mean, you could get away with not doing it and you could be like good ish or okay at it, or you could be this good every time if you just actually do the work. Now, she didn’t say it like that, but that’s what I heard, which is, You can make excuses about why this is too hard, like why this is something you can’t possibly be bothered to do, and da da da, and you have other competing yadda yadda, but like, the, the, best thing, you know now, like you can no longer lie to yourself and say that you can do the same quality interview without the same [00:23:00] quality prep, and I was like, crap, I can’t lie to myself anymore, so it became a thing.

The Art of Real-Time Interviewing

Jordan Harbinger: read the book for every guest and if and then it became read the book for every guest and then listen to other interviews that person is on and then it became read the book for every guest listen to other interviews that person has done and then also maybe read some like negative reviews of the book or some criticisms of that person’s work or something along those lines and that gave me a more well rounded picture of the person I was talking to and that’s a lot of work man reading the whole book like I’m not a fast reader so I’m Thinking like, you know, if I go on a plane and I’m able to just like plow through a book, it’s gonna take me like seven or eight hours, right?

That’s a full day of work. I can’t be doing other things, can’t multitask well during that time. Maybe I can go for a walk and listen to the audiobook, but I can’t like check my email and read a book. No, I don’t think anybody really can. So I’m, I’m putting in that amount of work. You know, it’s a full day of work to prepare for a good interview. at least one day. And then, you know, I take a bunch of notes during that [00:24:00] time. I’m not just listening to the book and going like, okay, I think I got it. There’s notes. And then maybe there’s five or eight pages of notes. Then before the interview, I go through the notes again, like the, literally the hour before. And I rearrange them, and I put this is gonna sound better over here, and like, oh, this is kind of a fun thing. Actually, I’ll put this over here. Ooh, this is a really sad story. Okay, so after that, I need to put this like, funny story to bring the energy back up in the show. You know, I’m doing all kinds of stuff like that.

I’m not just like, shooting off the cuff. It’s supposed to sound like I’m shooting off the cuff. I’m not lying to the audience, they know I have notes, but It’s, it’s supposed to not sound like I’m reading, because I’m not reading, but it’s also supposed to sound casual, and also during the conversation, if they bring up that thing that’s down here, you know, naturally, I’m like, oh crap, okay, I gotta move that thing up here, because they brought it up, which means that the following thing, you know, they brought up the sad story, so now I gotta move the funny story earlier to bring the energy back up, but then I can’t just go from that funny story to another funny story, I gotta move that other funny story back down, and so I need to put some other content over here that I wasn’t gonna bring up till the end of the [00:25:00] show, and I’m doing all that in real time. You know, while having a conversation, which is very difficult because you’ve got to remain present during a conversation, but you also have to be like, okay, check, mentally check that box that’s been done. So, I use Google Docs and I use the highlighters, right? And it’s like, yellow, done. Green, come back to it later.

And then if they’re telling something and they’re telling a long story that maybe I’ve read before or heard before that I’ve teased out of them, I take that like 30 second period and I’m like, okay, cool. Cut, copy, paste, copy, paste, move this, move this, move this, reshuffle this, so that I’m constantly scrolling down so that I get a good idea of the timeline left on the show because what you don’t want is like a bunch of pieces all over your notes, right?

You want to be able to sort of go, okay, I’ve got three pages left, I’ve got 30 minutes left, we’re doing good, like this is working. What you don’t want is like, Oh, I’ve got, I think it looks like maybe I’ve got like five pages, but then there’s this thing. And then there’s this other thing. And there’s this other thing.

And I think I have like 30 minutes. Like that’s, Oh, now you’re going to run out of time. And you don’t know what’s important. And I’ve also found that, you know, doing this in real time [00:26:00] is, is actually quite key because what happens is you go, Oh, I’ve got 18 minutes left, but I’ve got 30 minutes of content. Okay, game time decision, this isn’t that important, this isn’t that interesting, this one is important, this one’s super interesting. Okay, gray these out, and if I run if by some miracle we have more time, I can come back to them later. but I’m skipping to the good stuff, right? And it’s, it’s like, you have to be able to do all of that in real time without getting distracted and bogged down in it because you still have to listen.

It’s actually a learned skill to say the least.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: There’s a few key takeaways I’ve taken from what you’ve said there. Number one is, and this is really key and crucial for

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. That’s the

main

takeaway, I think,

from most of what I’ve just said. Listen to your wife. Well, the thing is, she wasn’t going to lie to me, right? She was like, oh, this is a crucial time where, like, Jordan has realized [00:27:00] that he has to do this to perform at the top level. And I can either like. smooth this over and give him permission to be less than, less than, or I can sort of go, what do you think you need to do to be great?

Do you think you can get away with it? And like, if you’re honest with yourself, and did you look me in the eye and say, you don’t really need to do that? And the answer was no, you know, I need to put in the work. And so there is a such thing as too much work. There’s too many notes. There’s too much content that you’re not going to get through, et cetera. I see this mistake as well.

Balancing Content and Audience Respect

Jordan Harbinger: Um, I see these podcasters that do like three hour long shows, sometimes people like to watch those, sometimes people don’t, and I’m thinking, oh, you have inadequately prepared this conversation, it appears that you’ve prepared a ton of material, and maybe you have, but what you have failed to do is look at how this stuff is important, this stuff is important, this other stuff is not important, because you don’t know what you’re gonna get, so you end up with these crazy long three, four, five hour long conversations where 60 [00:28:00] percent of it probably didn’t even need to happen, but the guy prepared it so he asked it and then he didn’t edit it out even though the content was not necessarily what the audience really needed. So a lot of the good feedback I get is This show is what other, you know, these other shows could be if they prepared better, and it’s, it’s true. Making a short show, I mean my show’s an hour plus, it’s not that short, but making a show that’s four hours, that’s rambling and goes off in a zillion different directions, and you’re talking with a physicist about whether or not they believe in love or some crap like that, like, you don’t need to do that. If you really prepare and you really want to hit it out of the park, it’s about distillation of the best stuff, not about getting the most comprehensive brain snapshot of this person who’s now just tolerating you, right? Um, because I re you gotta respect the audience’s time as well. People don’t There’s a bunch of unemployed stoners watching YouTube that have nothing but time. But for a, a, a nice [00:29:00] professional audience like that who listens to the Jordan Harbinger show, people who’ve got places to go and people to see and careers to attend to, children to attend to, you have to respect their time. So you want like an hour and change of super high impact, distilled stuff that doesn’t feel like homework or doesn’t feel like a university lecture, feels like a natural conversation, but it’s still loaded. And you can’t get that unless you prepare. Um, so it’s funny, it’s ironic, it looks like the longer your show is, the more prep you do. It’s actually kind of the other way around. Like, if I had another, you know, 10 hours for each guest, I bet I could get the conversation down to 45 minutes and it would still feel it would feel a little rushed. You know, 30 minutes, 45 minutes, but I could get only the, like, juiciest juice right out of it. Um, but I’m not gonna do that. I think, I think I’ve hit the sweet spot where it seems effortless to the outsider, but is clearly not effortless when people think about how that piece of content was made.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: Well, for [00:30:00] me and for this show specifically, if we go all the way back to the introduction, I set what the value of this show was going to be. We want to talk about how to extensively prep for your podcast interviews. And so for me, I will try and choose for this show, one topic. And I will, exactly like you said, I want to give the listeners as much value as they possibly can on what we are talking about.

I know that

we, me and you could easily talk for three, four hours about podcasting and a million other things. We

talked for half an hour, no problem. Before we even started recording and we, we could just meander and talk. And some people might like that, but for me, I want to give the listener as much value as possible.

So they can get, they come on, they come to listen to this show and they’re like, I’m going to listen to Jordan Harbinger, tell me how to prep for a guest. I’m not going to listen about his. life story, and we’re going to listen about Neil’s story. So I think that’s really crucial is having that set from the beginning is what you want to get out of it.

The other thing I took from what you said a second ago, and I love this, and I believe in this a hundred percent, is there [00:31:00] is no such thing as luck. I really, it really

frustrates me when somebody says something like, Oh, you’re really lucky. Like, I’ve not held, I’ve not held it too much, but it’s something that a lot of people like myself who live

overseas will hear, Oh, you’re so lucky you live overseas.

And you’re like, I don’t know, I don’t know. It’s not luck. Yeah, it’s not luck. And it’s, it’s hard work and it happens. And so same with you for your guests. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that. Oh, you’re so lucky you got to interview all those people. And you’re like, Oh, it wasn’t luck. It was a lot of hard work, but you never like the tip of the iceberg.

You’re seeing the tip of the iceberg. You’re not seeing all the hard work underneath. And the last thing that you mentioned is something that I just wrote about this recently, actually in a blog and on a LinkedIn post is you, it’s a really difficult skill. to think

while somebody else is, to think

while you’re actively listening, to think while someone else is talking or while you’re talking.

And that’s a skill I learned over years of doing interviews was somebody would be talking and I’m thinking, what, what am I going to say next? What’s the next question? I mean, even right now, while you’re [00:32:00] talking, I’m thinking, right, what am I going to say next? That there’s these three things I want to talk about that are related to the value of the show.

I’m How are we going to bring them up? How’s that going to lead to a conversation? And as I mentioned to you before we started, so I’m a stand up comedian as well. And there’s a really similar skill set there, but I’ll be on stage and I’ll be saying a joke. And I have said this to my wife, like my mouth will be moving and words will be coming out of my mouth.

But in my head, I’m thinking like, what’s the next joke? What am I going to say? How do I deliver it? And maybe somebody throws something at you, so you have to think on your feet. And it’s a really difficult thing that nobody sees. And what I loved about what you said as well, is people will watch your show.

They won’t be able to tell that you’ve done all that prep. They won’t tell that you have notes. It sounds really natural. And I guess just for people listening, the thing is. Going all the way back to what you said at the beginning, don’t quit. You have to keep doing this. You have to keep pushing. The only reason you’re going to get, the only way you’re going to get better is to [00:33:00] keep practicing, keep doing it.

Your first 10 episodes, you’re not going to

interview Cesar Millan, unless you’re

super connected, unless you’re already Conan O’Brien, you’re not going to get to that level. And What was the turning point for you, just to wrap up, what was the turning point for you when you started to get these bigger guests and the numbers started jumping up, because you obviously didn’t

Jordan Harbinger: Right now.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: of us, unless you’re already a celebrity, and they even had a, they started, even if it’s Conan O’Brien and he starts with a massive

Jordan Harbinger: That’s right.

Yeah.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: as a, as

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, it really took years of

The Evolution of Podcasting

Jordan Harbinger: putting out good content before people even cared that pod thought of podcast is a real thing. Like, even now, people are like, Oh, podcasting. Thankfully, during the pandemic, a lot of celebrities got into podcasting, and now they’re into it because it’s actually quite lucrative for them. And so, it’s It’s become, Oh, you have a podcast. Oh, this is a big podcast. Okay, good. We know what podcasts are because a bunch of our other clients have gone on them and et cetera. But that’s basically recent, right? Before [00:34:00] that, it didn’t matter if you had a huge podcast, it was still a podcast. People would much rather book their, their guest in a five minute segment on the tonight show than on Joe Rogan, even though a zillion people were watching Joe Rogan and listening to it for an hour.

And you know, he had way better ratings than whatever news show their guest was on or something like that. You know, the Tonight Show is probably a bad example because it’s huge, but like, they would much rather book their guest on a CNN spot than on a big podcast, which is a massive mistake. So the idea that new, like, the new media is finally starting to get a little bit of respect, which is great, but the turning point is still happening, right?

Like, I get big guests, but It’s very difficult. I don’t really rely on it. I don’t I don’t care about celebrities that much

Choosing Guests Wisely

Jordan Harbinger: . You know, I’m much more interested in the scientists and the psychologists and the the people with amazing stories, which is good because those people are a hell of a lot easier to book. But yeah, I would say the turning point came in about seven years when I finally realized like, Oh, my quality of work is really good. I can get these authors. They’re all this is exactly what they want. And authors was is still like sort of a high tier for me, right? There’s [00:35:00] authors writing about great things.

These are people that are really passionate about their work. I’d much rather interview an amazing author any day versus, you know, somebody who just showed up, uh, famous because they won a game show, you know what I’m saying, or, or even somebody who’s the star of their own reality TV show, for example, those people can be interesting, but it’s really the experts and the smart people, like my life now is read books, talk to smart people. Um, I would never trade that for read books, talk to celebrities.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: I love that recently on your show, or I don’t know how long you’ve been doing it, but I listened to a couple recently that you’re doing paired guests. So it’s, I think they’re two old shows and you’ve got like a kind of famous person or well known name with a lesser well known name. And I guess the intention is for people to, they’re going to, I know that’s why I did it.

You’re like, Oh, I know this person, I’m going to listen to it.

Jordan Harbinger: Oh, interesting, like a mashup. Yeah, my YouTube team’s probably doing stuff like that. I don’t pay too much attention to YouTube because I don’t want to have to create for the algorithm. I like to create audio based on things that I like. YouTube, you [00:36:00] know, you have to create for YouTube. So I’ve, I’ve sort of handed that off to folks that know how to do that because I don’t want to be thinking about what is the robot over at Google headquarters want to see. I just want to follow my own interests.

But it’s nice talking with you, man. I really

appreciate the opportunity to come on the program and, and kvatch with you while you’re over there in Vietnam. And I’m over here in California. I can hear my kids rumbling in the next room, wanting to mess

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: There’s the back.

Jordan Harbinger: cleaned up during the day.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: No worries.

Jordan Harbinger: So.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: Quick last question. Who’s the

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, really tough.

Unique Interview Highlights

Jordan Harbinger: I mean, one that always sort of comes back to mind is this guy Jack Barsky. He was a former spy, uh, who had pretended to be an American and it, they based a show off of the program that he was in called The Americans. Really cool spy show. And he stole, the episode is quite long, he stole an identity of a dead baby basically, learned English, went through Canada, snuck into the United [00:37:00] States, pretended to be this American, got a job at an insurance company, and then when the Soviet Union fell, they were like, you need to come home, and he was like, I don’t want to go home.

I like America. So he stayed here. He only got caught years later. Well, I don’t want to spoil it, but he got caught years later, uh, doing something, but it wasn’t spying. So it’s quite fascinating. He still lives in the United States. Really, really fascinating

episode. Jack Barsky, B A R S K Y, if people are interested in that kind of thing.

It’s just a fascinating episode and amazing story. But there’s a lot of really interesting folks on the show. That’s just one that tends to pop up over and over again.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: Nice.

Final Thoughts and Farewell

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: Well, thank you so much. I

really appreciate your time. I hope we can do this again sometime and talk about a different topic. Remember, if you enjoyed this episode, then please share it with somebody else. Please share it with someone who also is passionate about podcasting as well. Don’t forget to follow, subscribe, like, turn on the notifications, all of

Jordan Harbinger: Thank you, man.

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: And Jordan, thank you so much for coming

Jordan Harbinger: Okay. Save that file. [00:38:00]

niall-mackay_1_08-20-2024_075348: I think you probably used Squadcast.

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